EMERGENCY PODCAST: Life after Roe. With Megan Geuss

EJ Russo and Dr. Jay Weixelbaum sit down with former journalist and law student Megan Geuss for an impromptu live discussion about our reaction to the Dobbs v. Jackson decision and what we can do moving forward. 

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:13

Welcome to a Nazi on wall street podcast because every time history repeats, the price goes up.

Speaker 2 0:20

I am Dr. Jay weel. I'm a historian and filmmaker and expert in American companies that did business with Nazi Germany,

Speaker 1 0:27

And I'm EJ Russo. I'm just a regular guy who has grown concern by the recent rise of anti-democratic sentiment growing around the world and is just trying to figure out what is really happening. Jay and I created this podcast in part to help promote his project, a Nazi on wall street, but to also discuss troubling events and give them historical context today. Well, today is gonna be a little different. Normally Jay and I take a few weeks to prepare for an episode. We schedule a guest and navigate that week subject around their area of expertise. And then I extensively edit the episode after we record it to maximize the quality, you know, deleting any unnecessary tangents, making sure each episode is more easily consumable to the audience. However, with the recent decisions surrounding the Dobbs versus Jackson women's health organization, Jay and I, we, we decided to call for an immediate emergency podcast episode to pull on that thread, you know, and, and hopefully figure out what kind of world we live in. Now. Uh, we were about to announce the release of the next episode regarding Christian nationalism with Thomas Laak, which in my opinion drives much of the fervor behind the pro-life move movement. And we still will do that. We at a Nazi on wall street podcast just felt that this episode needed, needed to happen now. Um, and so this is gonna be a little bit different there's there's no, there's, there's no plan here. There's nothing planned Jay and I just decided to sit down, hit record. Uh, we have no idea how long this will take. Uh, we're we're, we're just trying to process this very sad period that we all have been essentially thrust into. So, um, as I always start off the pod, Jay, my friend, how are you doing,

Speaker 2 2:20

Uh, I'm, uh, uh, feeling all sorts of things. As many people around the us are feeling, uh, I, uh, I I'm, I'm, I'm sad, I'm angry. Uh, I'm scared, uh, you know, um, as a historian, I'm appalled, uh, as an American I'm, uh, deeply frustrated and disappointed. Um, and, and yet, uh, I, uh, I'm also resolved, uh, we wouldn't bother doing this podcast or, or, um, I wouldn't bother being a historian at all if I didn't feel like there was, uh, some reason to hope and I keep fighting on. Uh, and so that's why we're here. Um, every podcast we do is kinda like a, a time capsule, uh, at this time capsule on June 26, uh, when we are recording, uh, you know, uh, Dobs has just been announced, uh, oftentimes, uh, as EJ as you were saying, um, we take a, we take a bit of time, uh, with these, with these episodes. So, um, uh, they can come out after, after other events, uh, have, have happened. And, uh, we've talked about paradigm shifts on this show before, and like there's lots of stuff going on. So it's hard to, it's hard to stay up to date when in this process, but, um, speaking of that, uh, just very quickly, I'm really excited, uh, to, to have this conversation, uh, because there's so much to talk well excited. I I'm very excited, seems too positive for this great occasion. I'm, I'm, I it's really, this is a really important conversation, but, uh, just very quickly, I wanna give some updates about this project, uh, before we dive in, um, the Nazi on wall street project is, is continually growing. This podcast is a, a major important part of it and, uh, uh, is always deeply, deeply grateful to you EJ, uh, for, for making this all possible. Um, we, uh, we had a Kickstarter, uh, for, uh, um, the, uh, the Nazi on wall street, short film, which is going to be part of the pitch to pitch this show that is kind of the major galvanizing organizing thing around which all the other Nazi on wall street, things revolve. Um, we, uh, we raised$5,300 in two months in 60 days. That is super fantastic. We have like, uh, 60 people, uh, donate, uh, huge, uh, from famous famous producers, actors, scientists, uh, I'm just so, uh, deeply grateful. We now have an actual budget, uh, for the first time, uh, uh, our, our project is growing up. Um, that's, that's really exciting. So, uh, this is all, uh, to package, uh, our, um, our pilot script, our idea to present this true story of the, uh, of the, uh, this Nazi spy that comes to America 1940 to try to recruit American companies to, uh, the Nazi cause and only a Jewish FBI agent stands in his way, uh, where to tell that true story, uh, we want, uh, an, uh, Netflix or HBO to pick it up, and now we can shoot a short proof of concept, uh, as part of our, uh, pitch package. So again, just huge, huge, thank you to everyone, um, who has donated, uh, we continue to raise money, uh, to pay for various things like web hosting podcasts, uh, host this, this podcast lives on a server, too, um, music artwork. Um, you can always donate, uh, on our website at elusive films, uh, dot com. So that's, that's update one just very quickly. Two. We, uh, this podcast is also growing super, super exciting, uh, EJ and I have several more episodes prepared, obviously, EJ just talked about, uh, Dr. Thomas Laak that's, uh, super exciting Christian nationalism and populism are things that are, are very much tied into this, this terrible, uh, moment we are in. Um, the, uh, and, and, uh, I just wanted to offer, uh, we, uh, uh, uh, we have a, um, I'm going to offer, uh, an uncut version of this future episode, uh, episode three with Thomas Laak. That includes a special secret bonus where I talk about the historical allegory of the wizard of Oz, um, uh, which we are, uh, uh, cutting for time. Um, but if you give 10 bucks or more on our website, uh, I will gladly link you to, uh, that extended episode. Um, so super excited about that. We're also gonna talk, um, about to some, some other really amazing guests who've got teed up, uh, later in the summer about, uh, the role of the media when democracy is under threat, uh, the importance of, uh, history in public, the public's understanding the role of public history, uh, and also how to fight back against white nationalism and the excellent work of the Southern poverty law center. So please stay tuned and thanks for listening. And, uh, let's really, uh, dig into this.

Speaker 1 7:14

Yeah, Jay, um, well, first I wanna make sure that we, weren't going to have a conversation about women's health and abortion and all that type of stuff between just two white guys, just having a, a conversation about that. I, I wanted to have some sort of female perspective, uh, and so I wanna introduce Megan GEIS, who is a formal journalist and a law student, uh, to the podcast. Um, she also happens to be my wife. Yeah. I just wanted to open the floor and, and, uh, welcome her on welcome

Speaker 3 7:47

Hij and Jay, nice to be here.<laugh> long time listener, first time caller

Speaker 1 7:52

<laugh> I, I really just wanted to kind of find out how, how everybody's feeling with Friday. Yeah. And, uh, what kind of a world we're living in. I don't know who wants to start off.

Speaker 3 8:03

I wish I had read it so I could go into a deeper dive about it. I mean, my understanding is that it was overturned based on the fact that there's no constitutional just broadly, there's no constitutional right to an abortion, but Roe was decided on a due process ground. So, so the concurrences said, you know, maybe all subsequent and previous cases that were decided on a, on due process, um, should also be overturned, meaning there's no, you know, and, and explicitly that there's no right to privacy, which I know Roe is based on. And I, I, I am sad that I, to say that I don't, I haven't read it or processed it or analyzed that whatsoever. I mean, I think<laugh>, as I'm reading it, you know, I, when you first read Roe as a law student, you're like, Hm, there are some problems with this, right. There should be a lot of Roe was on, you know, based on the fact that there's, you know, this viability date, you know, 24 weeks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, after viability, then you, you know, there can be legislation of abortions and that did, that's like incredibly nebulous and not, but the difficult thing is there's no, you know, you can't really engage in a good faith argument about like, what is viability and what is not viability because it's, it's about control of women. So, I mean, in a perfect world, could robe be overturned and then reinstated in a way that, you know, women's rights are based on equal protection. I mean, that's my, that's my gut<laugh>, but that's not, that's not the world we live in. It's not to make a more perfect law to protect women's autonomy. It's the situation here is much more depressing and dire<laugh>, so,

Speaker 2 9:52

Right, right, right. You see people talk about era as like a major step, perhaps.

Speaker 3 9:59

Yeah. I mean, that would be in any kind of amendment<laugh> would be so gr so welcoming. I don't know. We EJ and I had this discussion over Friday night and, you know, personally, I mean, it may be 50 years. I may be dead before we could put something in the constitution that would actually enshrine a, a right to bodily autonomy for every person. I hope that I see it someday, but without it, it seems that we are, we are always gonna be hitting up against this wall. I dunno. Anyway, nobody asked for those<laugh> well, maybe

Speaker 2 10:38

You did EJ. No, that's uh, and I was reminded EJ what you, you asked me right before we came on, you know, um, what you've been seeing online about, um, this kind of, um, uh, a Jewish perspective, Jewish argument, cuz you know, this is all informed obviously by like religious Christian specifically ideas about, uh, what personhood is not, you know, what's said in the, uh, 14th amendment, right.<laugh> yeah. And, uh,

Speaker 1 11:06

And, and stay tuned for the next episode of Christian national.

Speaker 2 11:10

Exactly.

Speaker 1 11:10

Announcing wall street podcast, cuz we're discussing we're we're pulling that thread on Christian nationalism, but yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 11:15

So privileged to have Dr Laak on. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 1 11:19

But yeah, so I was bringing up the idea, I saw online that, uh, and, and, and Megan, I, I forget who it was. It was, um, uh, somebody was using, um, I think they were, they were basically claiming that this decision is infringing on their religious rights as Jewish people because, you know, they're, they believe that abortion is acceptable and so they can, they can no longer function in their faith. I, I, I don't know what the actual term was, but I saw that and I thought it was an interesting argument.

Speaker 2 11:55

Yeah. Yeah. That's,

Speaker 3 11:57

That's an argument I've seen, uh, go around and I think, I think Sacramento B there was a article about it. Um, somebody had written a, uh, an opinion piece that I thought was good. Um, yeah, I mean that, I think that's, that's actually a viable, um, I mean, I, I don't know, they would have to take it to court and I don't know if you could go all the way up to Supreme court, but you'd have to find a woman who is Jewish, who could not get an abortion and for, you know, and she needed it for whatever reason. And it would, you know, I, I think there would be,

Speaker 2 12:33

Um, if I'm not mistaken, that case exists. Yes. Uh there's uh, yeah. There's gonna be it's Florida, right? There's a synagogue challenging. Yeah.

Speaker 1 12:41

It's in Florida.

Speaker 2 12:42

Yeah. Uh, abortion ban in Florida. Um, yeah. I mean, the base of what I know about it is that, uh, and, and grew up with this, you know, is that, um, the life of the mother is always the priority life. Basically all one of the things I like about Judaism is that it's not, it's not doctrinaire. It's all about like questioning things and, uh, and, and, uh, contingency, right? So it's like if there's a life and death situation, no, you're not. You're gonna throw the cor all the kosher stuff out the window and like, you're gonna survive. You're starving. And there's only bacon eat that, uh, you know, like, and same thing with, with, uh, um, when it comes to, when it comes to abortions, you know, if, uh, the life and wellbeing of the mothers is threaten that is the priority, uh, regardless of a woman couldn't afford to have a child or, um, was, uh, was raped or, or any of these terrible scenarios we could think of it's. And, and then there's this and this other part too, which I I'm endlessly frustrated, uh, when I interact, um, with fundamentalist, Christians, uh, is, um, on, um, this fetal personhood cuz in Judaism, uh, a, a person isn't a person until they take their first breath when they're born. Um, this, this whole idea, which I think is really, uh, a product of the politics, the last 50 years of this, you know, uh, at the heartbeat or, you know, at conception, I think that's, I think that's honestly, I think it's not really, it's not, it has nothing to do with Judaism.

Speaker 3 14:14

Right. And yeah, and I, I do wanna caution one for that Florida case. The, the one thing I can think of that might be an issue for that is, um, a case called employment division versus Smith. Um, and I think that, that I, if the argument, and again, like I haven't read any of these, so I'm sorry about that. And I, this is just off the cuff, but if there's a, if the, if the challenge is that the, the abortion law is, um, not allowing someone to practice their religion, then I think you have to prove that the law was specifically aimed at the religious practice. So, um, so I think there might be H maybe hurdles there, not to say that a good lawyer couldn't lawyer around that. I just, I don't know, the, the full facts, the case.

Speaker 2 15:01

Yeah, yeah,

Speaker 3 15:02

Yeah. But the viability issue is a real, its a real problem in row is real problem because again like a viability also with like medical advances, viability becomes younger and younger and younger, so, you know, just kill a woman, rip out the fetus and there you go, your viables that's great. You know, like I just, it, it it's it's, it was not a, it was not a good standard, but it was a standard, it was a stop gap. I I think, and I think, I think really a, a imperfect world, we have a way that you can articulate some sort of right to bodily autonomy. That's just the only way to get through it there's or a right. For women to have the same, um, standard of medical care as men. I, I mean, I'm not sure how you would go about it, but, but just like, oh well of fetus is kind of viable at a certain age, maybe. So, you know, then we can't, we, we gotta go through with the birth or what, what it's just, it's too, it's too fluid. And, and I think that that made it extra easy to shoot down probably once they're with case

Speaker 2 15:58

<laugh>, uh, reason.com the, uh, um, flagship libertarian magazine and, uh, backed by the Koch brothers, um, has already been teeing up this, uh, um, ju Jewish practices, uh, question mark, which is<laugh>, uh, the, uh, the internet reacted pretty strongly to that because it's basically antisemitic to, it's just like, you know, I'm just gonna tell you Jews whether or not you're practicing hard enough and decide basically<laugh>

Speaker 3 16:27

Yeah,

Speaker 2 16:27

Yeah. That, so, yeah, so it's, it's really, it's already getting grow. I mean, I knew this was gonna happen. If, if Jews stand up, we're immediately gonna be, um, attacked in all the ways that antisemitism has been coming out and worse and, and make ourselves a target. Um, and you know, people are gonna do that anyway, but it's yeah, it's really, it's scary. It that's a whole other dimension of not great.

Speaker 3 16:52

Right? Yeah. They, I, I think the discourse that I had been seeing last week was like our reform Jews, Jews enough. And it's like, is anything, is anything enough I don't know is now we have to go back to the exact historical wording of the, uh, of, of the constitution. So nothing can ever be changed. Everything is just set in stone at the exact time that the first thing happened and there's no context ever allowed. I don't know.

Speaker 2 17:20

Yep. I mean, this brings up a lot of thoughts. Um, eventually EJ and I will pro talk about, about populism and engaging populist untruths as, uh, as a, as a very specific tactic. Um, actually works a lot with a NA narcissist too, as like, as soon as you engage the web of lies. Yeah. Uh, they've won because now you're explaining and justifying, uh, and you're, you're taking all that energy. You could be building community and building leverage to undo these terrible things and build a better, uh, society that, where we have bodily autonomy. Right. Um, instead you're, you're arguing people who are, are, um, engaging in good faith anyway. So

Speaker 1 18:04

Yeah, and that's just really frustrating for me cuz I just feel, I feel that there is, or at least from the people that I, I, I come in contact with on online and on, uh, even within my, within my own family, uh, and friends, my own circle. I just feel like this is doing nothing but cement anti-democratic, you know, perspectives. Uh, the people that you know, are on either side right or left are, um, are just getting frustrated with the, and, and disillusioned with the process, with the process of liberal democracy, right. With, with his incremental change, uh, you know, process instead of they, I see a lot of people on both sides that are like, we need to burn this down. Yeah. And I don't know how to talk to people right now that will develop community that will develop. Like I, I get, I understand actually I understand more the, the religious fundamentalist perspective more so than I understand where, um, my progressive friends are coming some of the time mm-hmm<affirmative> um, because at least I I've had experience discussing this and a lot of other stuff, um, with, with, with re with religious fundamentalists, um, I don't agree with their, their perspectives obviously, but I, I, I don't understand sometimes where a lot of, of this, this anger comes from, from the left where they assume they, they basically say, okay, well, you know, Democrats are just weak, they're corrupt. Um, working within the confines, the law obviously doesn't work, you know, they're, they're they're, but they're not weak because of that. They're they, they also, they, they rely on the same lobbying money that Republicans do. And thus have no vested class interest in performing that system. So why and bother, you know, I mean, sure. They will list an agenda item, but they don't ever bring about proposals. They don't talk about things like this publicly anymore. You know, Republicans continue to exploit obstructionism and Dems won't do anything about it. So what we need to do is, you know, build resilient communities through mutual aid and direct action. If you want change anything, you have to burn the system down and build from the bottom up. And, and, and, and that's the only way that we can do this instead of like, you know, change the system from within and like, are people confusing? Are people confusing, uh, politics within therapy? I, I, I don't know. I, I just, what's, what's funny to me is that when I was, when I was younger, um, I, I was actually more conservative in my, in my college days. And I remember, and I was not quote unquote conservative. I was a, I was a, a centrist Republican, you know, I, I voted for Bob doll, you know, just, I was a, I was a McCain supporter. And I remember, um, being told throughout my youth that the older that you, you get, the more conservative you get, that is so funny to me, because that is the exact opposite of what has happened. I've definitely, and I don't know if it's a result of the, the political Atmos or landscape that's been going on over the last, like 20, 30 years has just moved to the right. And I've just stayed where I have been. And so, as a result, I've become more left wing or have I become, you know, more liberal. But, um, the, the, the, I

Speaker 3 22:25

Do also think that when you're younger, you, you tend to go with, with the establishment figures in your family, tend to vote. I think that's, you also sort of unquestionably can take. And even if you're like a few man, you know, or I don't need your, you can still sort of, you're like, well, this is, you know, this is what I know. I, I think if you're, if you, um, really have self-examination as a character trait, sometimes you can, you reason your way out of that. And sometimes people do it the opposite direction too. I, I mean, I know I grew up in a very liberal California and I know people have gone the other way. So, uh, that's, I don't know. I would be hard. I, I don't think that's from a process of self-examination or process of probably not probably a, a feeling left out of whatever community they're from. I'm not sure, again, it's, it's politics, not therapy, so probably don't need to sit and, and engage too much with that. But, you know, I, I mean, people change for all kinds of reasons. I don't, I don't think that, I mean, I think McCain and Bob doll were probably just as conservative, if not more so than where we are now. Right. They, they courted the evangelical right too.

Speaker 1 23:34

And that's, what's funny is that Megan and I both grew up as Catholic. Um, but in completely different perspectives, you know, Megan was brought up in Catholic school and I was, I just went to Sunday school and my church was pretty liberal. So I, I mean, the abortion was never really discussed in my, in my church. You know, homosexuality was never really discussed. Things, loved that nature. We just kind of was like, Hey, Jesus was loved everybody. And here's a cracker. It, that was, that was my experience with Catholicism. Megan was told and taught at a very early age, uh, throughout, uh, her childhood, that abortion was wrong. Mm-hmm<affirmative> um, and they would, they, would, your teacher would, uh, have you write letters to the president ex you know, condemning him for his, his pro-choice stance?

Speaker 3 24:30

Yeah, no. Yeah. We, we wrote letters to bill Clinton, I believe. Um, we wrote letters to the Pope asking him to pray for unborn fetuses or whatever. Uh, it was, it was quite yeah, 10 years Catholic school. I mean, my high school was more liberal, um, under, you know, there, I mean, there is sex Catholicism just as there are sex of anything. So, um, you know, I, I, we, my high school, I would consider it more social justice Catholic, where it was more like Dorothy Day and all the, you know, feel good feed the poor, the kind of stuff you want from a religion. But the, the early years were a lot of, you know, uh, a lot of anti-abortion thought and, um, doctrine. So, you know, I mean, I guess maybe I was talking to EG about this earlier. Um, I might have that perspective. I, I don't know if either of you grew up in extremely, uh, anti-abortion circles, but I certainly did. And I know, I, I understand, I guess I understand why people are anti-abortion. I, I don't, I don't agree with it<laugh> but I, I think if, and I, I, I don't know if this comes from a building community part, um, but to sit down and, and engage with somebody about why they think abortion is wrong, it's an exhausting thing. And I don't recommend, there's two, there's

Speaker 1 25:53

Two conversations to have though there's two conversations to have, right. Like, and, and I was talking about this with, with Jay, cause I know he has some perspectives regarding hopefully developing some sort of community in order to, you know, to, to move past whatever this is. Um, and so there's, there's two conversations and I was kind of alluding to this a little bit earlier when I was talking about, you know, a certain, uh, progressive, uh, perspective that I've been seeing online that thinks that, you know, that Democrats are the ones to blame for this, right. It's yeah. Okay. Christian, the Christian nationalists, the Christian fundamentalists, the Republicans, this has been their thing for 50 years now that should not come as a surprise. Right. Uh, uh, Dem Democrats have had the presidency in both houses twice now with Obama and now Biden Ginsburg could have retired, you know, there there's been opportunity to fix all of this. Um, why? So, so they blame Democrats, right? So there's a conversation to have with those people. And then there's a conversation to have with, you know, the, the right side, which is, is a completely different perspective. Um, and how do we have that conversation? Because I think, and I, I don't want to, I don't want to be accusatory. I don't want to be like, I don't want to just paint these, the, the, both, both sides here as, as straw men and attack the straw man, instead of attacking what these people actually believe sure. On a case by case basis. Um, but you know, how, how do you have conversations? Like, and I, I remember talking to you, Jason, you're like, well, and Megan, like, you have to be able to talk to your, your, your, your Trump supporter aunt, and you have to be able to talk to, you know, the, your, your neighbor who is a Bernie supporter, and you have to sit down, you have to have conversations with them. Um, how, because I don't know how<laugh>.

Speaker 2 28:12

Yeah. I mean, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw a head Redy in here completely and upset the apple cart. Do we? Uh<laugh> so we know populism's a problem, right? Uh, there's a left wing populism and a right wing populism, and okay, I'm doing the exact thing. You just wore me not to do straw men. Right. But like, let's, let's tease this out a little ways. There's a few layers, this to this conversation, one is about, okay, how do you convince these folks? And then there's, and then there's the building community, uh, aspect, which we just kind of, uh, touched on, um, you know, and, uh, you know, America has this de populous tradition people, uh, uh, get off on feeling aggrieved. Um, if they're fearful, um, if they're sad, if they're angry, uh, it's real easy to come under the sway of a populous leader who is saying, you're the victim. I personify your grievance. Here's a movement, which by the way, I maintain and grow my power by galvanizing a bunch of people to go find an enemy to be mad at. Does that do anything to build community? No. It actually harms communities because you create webs of lies that puts people at odds against each other, or debating things that we're never in. Good faith. Um, you know, uh, all, and, and, and because this is all about really serving, um, a feeling of fear, which is something that you can't debate, you can't debate anyone's feelings about anything mm-hmm,<affirmative>, um, uh, or convince, uh, because you're, you're never gonna, you're never gonna convince somebody, their feeling was not valid and your, your opinion is, uh, it's not gonna work. That means that like, there's, there is no way to, to, to break through that necessarily. I mean, yes, people can be convinced. Sure. And I think that's, that's a conversation we need to have too, but like, we're in this kind of like populous orgy right now from both the left and the right and, and left wing populism and right. Wing popul. And the only way I really differentiate them is like the excuse people use, uh, to, to, um, um, justify this enemy finding and punishing, uh, um, exercise. Right? If it's, if it's a left wing populism, it's like, uh, here's in a oppress group that I can use as a shield, um, to, uh, avoid any kind of critical thinking, accountability, uh, judgment, um, or here's my identity as a shield. This is why we invented intersectionality, right. Because there people have multiple identities and experienced multiple things. Uh, and you know, it's not, it's not a one size fits all with which, uh, right. Wing, populous love as a wedge. Right. Um, but, um, and then of course on the right, they, I mean, we know this we're, we're all so much more familiar with the right wing populism, right. Wing populism is like, their excuse is authority, hierarchies. Uh, God said, I'm right. You know, like, so they, you know, it's like, um, so for me, you know, it's like, okay, some people can be convinced. Uh, I remember back when I was a canvasser going door to door, uh, for various cause, and we had, um, at least internally for training, we have this kind of, uh, exercise of what a, you know, what a supporter is or potential supporter and what a non-supporter is. And some people can be talked to, but then be, you know, in this kind of, especially inflamed populous moment right now, people just want to engage in the enemy finding and punishing and nothing you're gonna say is necessarily gonna convince them. Right. So what can we do then shifting a little bit to build the community with all the people who are already on our side, or are already at least on the fences, right. Who like, you know, there's all, there's all this work, right. There's a, um, I I'm gonna stop gabbing, but I've seeing underground networks and I'm seeing, uh, you know, um, mutual aid. I'm seeing, uh, that prime minister of Canada speaking, I'm seeing all this stuff. So anyway, I'll just keep for thought. Yeah.

Speaker 3 32:04

I, I think that's, I think that's, that's totally valid. You don't wanna engage with somebody who doesn't value your own life, you know, especially, I mean, with specifically with the abortion topic in mind specifically is, you know, I don't wanna engage with a guy, a right wing guy, Senator, whatever, who, who doesn't care if I deliver and die, as long as a Feist, right. Can survive that obviously don't, there's no, there's nothing good faith about that. There's nothing. I do think, however, you know, like it just, in my personal experience, it's obviously not from statistics or any, um, background in, in, um, you know, work with communities. I mean, I mean, I, I have canvased as well, but it's not quite the same as being an actual person who works with communities to try to make things go through. I, I think I just, from my perspective, um, I, I think you can't, I think there is a dialogue that you can have, especially because I think of the abortion issue is really a, a female led in both directions issue. And I, I think, yeah, I, I think on the right there are, there are so many more women, even though this is a women's rights issue, there are so many more women than I think anybody suspects on the left<laugh> that are really, really anti-abortion. Yeah. And, and that's their single issue. They don't care about gay rights. They don't care about, um, uh, you know, state's rights. They don't care about, you know, all the other, like right wing things. They just wanna save the babies, which is, that is obviously like the wrong, it's the wrong way to frame the argument and it's, and it's, uh, overly, but that, but that's how they think of it. That's how they think of it. And, and, and, but I do, but I think that there is a place there. I think that there is that there is, you can talk to some people about, you know, do you really think, do you really think if you were about to die, that you would be, um, against abortion? Do you really, I mean, again, that's like, that's an edge case and, and I think supporters of abortion, who would say, well, you don't have, you shouldn't have to be about to die to get abortion and abortion. You should just want an abortion. And that should be good enough, obviously, but that, but that's not where you start the conversation. I think. And I, I, I think you could say, you know, at six weeks, at eight weeks, at 10 weeks, it's just electrical signals firing. I mean, the whole like heartbeat at six weeks, that's also like not scientifically accurate.<laugh>, it's still just electrical signals. It's not a heart, it's like a neural tube that, that has one or two electrical signals. I say, this is a person who has had two children. I like children, I, before, you know, and I don't know where the, where the line is, but it is just electrical signals for a long time. And that doesn't, you know, I don't know. I, you can edit, save the

Speaker 1 34:54

Neural tubes.<laugh> well, I, I think that their perspective comes and we were kind of talking about this off camera a little bit. Um, the concept of the, the, the birth dear, right? Oh, where the whole, in my perspective, I, I really don't want to just fall down this huge anti-Christian, uh, conversation. I I'm really fighting that. I am an atheist and I have hard like strong atheist opinions. And I'm really trying not to bring that into this, this conversation. Uh, but I feel like I've been screaming this since 2007 to anybody that was willing to hear it. That is, this was coming. And this is just the first part of this they're coming for contraception. They're coming for gay marriage. They're coming for, I mean, Senator Cornin just made a, it was a, I think he thought it was a joke on Twitter, but he says like, Hey, why not Plessy versus Ferguson? Why not brown versus board? Right? Like, this is scary. This is scary. Um, and this whole concept of the birth earth comes from Christian, uh, Christian fundamentalism, where they believe, and, and, and white Christian fun Christian nationalists, where they believe that, like, there is a, a lack of white births that are happening right now. Um, and they are, and we discuss this in the next episode where, you know, they're white Christian nationalists or white, white Christians are a dwindling, um, uh, population right now. I mean, they still hold the majority, but they see the writing on the wall. They know that they are losing the numbers war here. And in order for them to incr, you know, to, to, to maintain power, they are, um, doing everything that they can to maximize the amount of white birds. And, well, this

Speaker 3 36:59

Is, this is the grossest thing to me personally is, and I think this was in the leaked opinion, but I don't know if it was in the yeah. Final draft with, um, and, and I believe again, it was Alito who mentioned this mm-hmm<affirmative> um, about, you know, how there was a lack of like, of babies for people who wanted to adopt, which is, is so, so te I mean, it is just so terrible on so many levels, first of all, because I mean, a lot of the, a lot of the adoption advocates that I know will admit that adoption can be trauma for many, many, many, many children. And mm-hmm<affirmative> you, you like, just to<laugh>, even though it, it can work out for a lot of people. And I am obviously not an expert on adoption. It's, it's just the grossest thing to think of babies as an economic resource that should be shopped out to evangelical Christians. And I think that's, and, and that is, again, in my understanding, there is, there is a strong evangelical cord in the foster movement in the foster care movement, in the, or, or the fo in, in foster care, in adoption. Um, and, and it is, it is to create more evangelical children. It's, it's a te I mean, that is just a terrible, terrible way to think about human beings. Obviously, you know, people grow up, they'll have their own mind, but you get indoctrinated as a child. I did EJ, did we all, you know, believe what our family believed for a long time. And, and, and if you have the good fortune of going to college, moving out of your states, you know, finding a job where you find other people that have different opinions then great, good. But if you stay in your hometown, you stay close to your family. You know, you can, you can be part of that, that quiver full movement<laugh>, you can be, you can be the quiver,

Speaker 2 38:50

<laugh> the domestic supply of infants.

Speaker 3 38:53

That's what, that's the phrase. Thank

Speaker 2 38:54

You. The quote. Yeah. It's really dehumanizing language.

Speaker 1 38:57

That is awful.

Speaker 3 38:59

The most ish way of thinking about human beings who have, I mean, I don't, I would, I would hope that if you were going to articulate an argument against abortion, it would start from a place of human dignity, maybe for the child. But if you're gonna start from like a, well, you're just, we need more, we need a bigger domestic supply of infants. Like, go, are we allowed to curse on this?

Speaker 2 39:24

Uh,

Speaker 3 39:25

No. Yeah. Okay. Well,

Speaker 2 39:26

Go EJS

Speaker 3 39:28

That is bad.

Speaker 1 39:29

Go to hell,

Speaker 2 39:30

Go a place that is back.

Speaker 1 39:33

I like it. So we're, we're technically a clean podcast. I've definitely dropped an F bomb here and there. I, I try to edit it out, but

Speaker 2 39:41

Whatever on Buzzsprout I have to click a box,

Speaker 3 39:47

You know what I feel like I used to curse a lot. And then somebody said, you know, if, if you have a really good argument, you don't need to curse at all. I was like, oh, maybe that's right. So I try to find better ways to say it, but obviously go to a place that is bad. It's like one of my less,<laugh>

Speaker 2 40:02

Less, or just save that, save that arrow in the quiver from when it really matters, you know, and get that make, make that FBO have a maximum effect. I, uh, I wanted to amend, I I'm, I'm, um, changing my mind here, uh, on the, on the podcast, uh, modeling, modeling, good behavior. We can change our minds, you know, it's, it's not about, yeah, it's not about sh I, I have a, I used to fight so much on the internet and I try not to do that. Mm-hmm,<affirmative> nearly as much, and, you know, um, engage in these bad faith arguments and, and not good for my health. Definitely not helping anyone. Um, and so then, yeah, my newer strategy is like, uh, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna not engage. You know, I'm gonna, I, and I have to do that in the real world too. It's not, not engaged, but I feel like, yeah, we have to have these conversations. So, so I guess the question is like, um, in what way do we frame them? Cuz because I think where we get stuck and where we're having trouble here is getting in, getting caught in this kind of web of bad faith mm-hmm<affirmative> uh, and arguments and li lies, you know, lies about, you know, um,<laugh>, uh, what, what a, what a fetus even is lies about, you know, uh, religious doctrine lies about, um, you know, um, uh, our, our society and, and uh, you know, even like, what is the purpose of having a, a whole bunch of evangelicals wiggle goes back to well, so we can punish our enemies still populism for me anyway. Sorry. I'm a broken record here.<laugh> but so it's still, yeah, it's still about like, I'm, I'm upset. I have feelings, therefore I want to punish somebody for it. Um, and, uh, pick your left or right. Wing, uh, excuse. Um, but, uh, yeah. So then if, if, if, if the strategy is not to engage in, uh, not to engage like the, the grossly bad faith arguments are lies and yeah. You have to have your own kind of set of counter arguments, like, well, we're, we're building a community based on human dignity and we, you know, you cuz I mean, yeah. And you are studying studying law and people talking on the floors of courtrooms to convince people that is such a key, key idea. Right. So it's like, okay, so what so, and, and what, what are the ways we do that? We, we do that by leveraging people's values, right? If you really care about human dignity and human life, well, let's talk about that. What does that actually mean? And, and by the way, here's what we're working on over here to help with that. And you, you shift the energy shift the conversation. So like, yes, my urge is just to shun all populous, which means eventually I will end up alone. Cause I just feel like there's, it's so deep in, in America already. And in right now it's just inflamed. But yeah, obviously if we want a better world, we have to talk to people. So,

Speaker 3 42:55

And I think I don't, I, I, I think about this a lot because I also spent 10 years, um, seven years on the internet, deeply engaging, writing diatribes on Facebook, having the, doing the retweets and you know, and I think in 2018, right, two years into the Trump administration, I wake up with headaches. I like get all anxious before I made any said anything online. And it's like, this is not, this is not working and it's not helping. And because, I mean, because things only got only got worse. I, I, I couldn't figure a way through, you know, and, and I thought maybe I don't need to engage everybody. Maybe I can engage people that I see on a day to day basis. Maybe I can engage friends who may be, um, you know, more holistic, right. And so they might be towards the anti-vax movement. Maybe I can, you know, and then we moved out to Pennsylvania and I talked to all my elderly beepers all the time, you know, they, and they have different opinions about stuff and sometimes it's not great. And I just try to make like the kindest, I disagree with you statement that I possibly can and walk away and look, you know, and, and smile and say hello at the, because I don't need to change everybody's life every single time. But if somebody is maybe on the fence and thinking, I, I don't know if I fully am, am agreeing with this and then maybe they'll see me and think she is kind and will be my friend still. I, I, I, I hope, and this is, I mean, this is purely edge case people. These are not like true racist, true misogynists, true gross people. I'm, I'm not talking to them. I, I meet them. I do not talk to them or gauge them with them. That's just not part of the life that I need to lead, especially. Yeah. So I, I don't know. I think there's a, a way to manage. I obviously, like you wanna reach as many people as possible. There are some people who do such good work online and I, and, and they do really like change my mind sometimes. And, but I, I don't know if I'm one of those people, I just try to be around the people I'm around. I don't know, without getting a headache.

Speaker 2 45:07

Well, the science of advertising, you have to, uh, you ha you have to be exposed. What, five times to an idea before you, uh, before you click or whatever. Yeah. I, I mean, there's a whole, yeah. The science of human behavior and the other thing, um, EJ, if you don't mind, I know you have many thoughts here. Uh, the, one of the other things that I, I wrote down in preparation, the steps episode, I came across, uh, a great convincing, uh, set of tweets. It was, uh, take this with a grain of salt was from my former CIA agent. Uh, but she wrote, uh, this eight part advice, uh, eight part plan of people that practice apparently where she worked, uh, in the CIA for of avoiding overload, an emotional overload. And she said, this is what reminded me, what you just said. She said that, um, one of her colleagues while they were developing this, um, one of her colleagues was waking up, was dizzy fatigue, getting headaches all the time, um, because they were overwhelmed with the, the work that they had to do, but they, it was so intense, the emotional, um, uh, uh, turmoil of like doing this work. They didn't realize they had brain cancer. Those, they, those, some of those symptoms, those headaches and things were being masked by all the stress they were experiencing. So they did. So they're, uh, they didn't get diagnosed until late into their illness. So like, this is real, like we need to have these coping skills. So anyway, I wanted to just share this really quick for everybody who's listening, who cares, uh, who's feeling like we are, um, just real quickly is a part plan. She says, uh, number one, take action, do something, uh, in some way that contributes to solutions in your community. That's one way you can help, uh, not feel overwhelmed, um, even, and she, but she says also, number two, know your limits. Remember, you can take small steps, uh, every day, every week, uh, these things add up these little small. I know this from working on a Nazi on wall street for two years, I I'm really busy doing lots of other things, but like, if I move the, you move the needle just a little bit every day, right? And then, uh, number three, uh, research before panicking,<laugh> learn about the crisis and be mindful of your gut panic reactions and like check out the facts, you know, and, and read about it. Um, she just says, get up and move around, take a walk. She says where she worked, uh, you would see colleagues walking together, talking all the time throughout the building. People always getting up and moving around something I need to do. Uh, more of luckily my, my Q little dog makes me do it at least twice a day. Um, five, uh, set rules to protect your time, uh, schedule breaks. Um, you, you have to, if you're engaged all the time, you're never, you're, you'd never have a break from the stress. Um, oh six was avoid dark holes. You don't have to engage awful things, uh, to understand it, uh, check in with yourself. You don't have to watch that video of, uh, policemen beating somebody. You don't have to, you, you don't have to, uh, watch a horror movie to relax after a long day of thinking about the loss of abortion rights. You know, there are things you can do, everybody's gonna cope in their way. But yeah, like, remember this, so, and then seven, remember to have fun. This is a necessity, not a betrayal of any particular movement. You ha it's, you have to, you ha you have to be able to, to relax that empowers you. If you are not well, then you can't help other people. Right. You gotta put your mask on first on the airplane. Um, and then last one is, um, and thank you for, for indulging me here. The last one is talk to somebody and EJ you've been there for me. You know, part of the reason our project's been a little slow in the last month of podcast, I had a test in the family, you know, and, and EJ is really thank you so much for being there for me. You have to talk to somebody. If you feel overwhelmed, take they, they can help you bring the temperature down on the stress and, and the overwhelming. So that's a part plan. It's, uh, her name's Cindy Otis go find her on Twitter. I thought that was a really useful thing to read in this moment here. And

Speaker 1 48:55

Yeah. Yeah. I think, uh, a lot of, um, a lot of what Thomas Laak is going to talk about in the next episode, and I know, I know I keep on saying, just wait for the next episode, but it's, it's really release or

Speaker 2 49:05

Release it soon. We'll we we'll do

Speaker 1 49:07

We'll release it soon. It's a really good episode. Um, however, he basically says that we are evolutionarily not ready to cope with the invention of the internet. And this eight part plan can really help at least stem some of the negative side effects that we are feeling on a day to day basis. I do feel that mental health has taken a huge hit over the last 15 years, and you're just seeing the repercussions of it now. Um, and I mean, it is a situation where a lot of times, I, I mean, I had to back away from social media and I touched upon the reasons why it had a lot to do with the proud boys. Check that episode out in season one, um, from

Speaker 2 49:56

Which one was that, do you remember which episode that was?

Speaker 1 49:59

I forget which number it was, but it was a proud boy episode.

Speaker 2 50:01

You'll have to listen to the whole season.

Speaker 1 50:03

Yep.<laugh> um, uh, and so, um, it, I found myself having to, I, I started back up on Twitter and I would only follow like sports, you know, beat writers from the team that I follow. Right. And I, but that was I'm now back on Instagram, I'm, I'm back on, you know, uh, contributing on Twitter. And I, I do feel that I should probably back off again mm-hmm<affirmative> because, um, but

Speaker 3 50:35

That's okay. You can always, you can do it until you feel like, oh, this is not feeling good for me. And then stop, you know, I, I think, I do think there's value in, in social media. I don't, I'm not a social media purist, but I, I, I think there's value in, in stating things in a way that people can access them like lots and lots of people. I think, I think that's actually useful. E even if you have people who disagree with you, they're still reading the, the thing that you're saying. But I also think that the most meaningful connections you're gonna have are probably not gonna be on social media. So it's, it's gonna be the conversation you have with, you know, the weird in-law or whatever you, you know, or the, the, like neighbor down the street or the mom at daycare, whatever it is, you know, you're just gonna, it it'll be something that they can put a, you're having a personal interpersonal, like face to face conversation with. And I, I just, you know, yeah. I, I, I think there's, there's different,<laugh> different values. I have to,

Speaker 1 51:32

I do have to say that after 15 years of losing complete connection with Jason, I was, I found him randomly contributing on Twitter and I that's right. I friend him on Twitter and that's, that's how this whole thing

Speaker 2 51:44

Started. Oh my gosh. Yeah. What was, do you remember what I was saying was something crazy.<laugh>

Speaker 1 51:50

Yeah. It was something, something crazy. Like, you know, you should, you should probably try to support centrist ideals.

Speaker 2 51:56

I oh, no. Oh, no. See I'm a, I'm an antifascist through, and three, you're talking about weird relatives. I have a, an aunt on my, my wife's side, uh, who, uh, has bought a bow and arrow to shoot Antifa. Uh, no. And, uh, I haven't, I haven't broken, uh, broken the truth to her yet that, uh, hi, Antifa here. I got, I went and got three degrees to fight fascist. I, and before that I was in black block, you don't know what that is, but check it out. Um, uh, and, uh, and I, and I wanna be like, okay, listen, aunt, uh, let me explain to you what a profile is then. Right,

Speaker 3 52:34

Right, right, right. Yeah. Um, we are proudly anti-fascists here, but we drive a minivan. So<laugh> yeah.

Speaker 2 52:42

Yeah. I mean, circling back like a few conversations ago, you know, uh, yeah. The, the folks on the, on the left, the left wing popul are like, well, Biden and cancel student loans. So I'm gonna let the fascist win. I wanted to be like, you know, FDR partnered with Stalin. Let's, let's get some perspective here.<laugh> about, he was shooting the NK VD, which is like this, the, the, um, the red army secret police, uh, executed 10,000 of their own men in the battle of Stalingrad alone, killed them for not engaging. This is people who are like, ah, that's the biggest battle in human history. I don't wanna be part of that. And they're like, well die. Um, we partnered with th that regime in order to stop fascism. So I think, you know, we can, we can, uh, have some perspective maybe about, uh, knocking 10 versus$50,000 off everybody's student loan. I don't, that's just me. Uh, does that make me a Centris neoliberal, uh, cist perhaps? Um, I, I would, I would say that, uh, you know, the issues of solidarity, uh, fundamentally is what makes a personal or progressive keeping that in mind, that to me is the core concept, not, uh, necessarily which leader I decide to D five who personifies my grievance, but,

Speaker 1 53:56

So that brings up a, a thing that I wanna, cause obviously now we're at the period of the podcast where all of our leftist friends that were like, Hey, I'll check out Jerry's podcast.<laugh>, I've now shut it off. Like, so we,

Speaker 2 54:07

Right, right.

Speaker 1 54:08

So, but so hopefully if anyone is still listening, um, I, what I would like to do, because the only way that we're going to be able to succeed is, is getting through the next two elections. Right? That's the only way that we're gonna be able to, to, to, to maintain our democracy. Because right now I think that there's a major push towards Christian. The, at this point, I think it's a real thing. And if you don't believe me, you are not paying attention. This, uh, do's decision is prove positive. That that is exactly what's happening. And if you just listen to, um, Clarence Thomas's, uh, commentary that he wants to go after gay marriage, he wants to go after a whole bunch of stuff that had, we thought was precedent and no longer is the case. So we can no longer count on anyone from the Christian, right. To recognize that, uh, a democracy is the, the way to move forward. We have to gain consensus with everyone else. And in my opinion, you're either a Democrat or you're a fascist, I know that that's going to get me in trouble, but at this point right now where we are, that's where it is. And I, I do know that there are people on the extreme left that are just like, they hate the Democrats more than they hate the Republicans. And we can't, we can't afford that. So how, how do we, as an a really anti-fascist anti-Christian fundamentalist movement that's been happening, uh, that has been festering over the last 50 years. Uh, how, how can we consolidate a collective narrative that will push us to, to, to use that to vote? Right. Because a lot of people that I talked to they're just done voting like you, like, they didn't vote before. They're like, okay, well, Trump is a bad guy. All right. I will vote for Biden this time. They voted for Biden. And then the same, the same inertia that has been, that that has been created 40 years ago is now starting to take fruit and yeah. Biden. And, uh, Biden's a Democrat and the, the Senate is a majority barely. And is in, I mean,

Speaker 3 56:38

Would you guys say, like,

Speaker 1 56:40

Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. No.

Speaker 3 56:42

Would, would you both say that you have more progressive friends than, than far right friends or any right friends?

Speaker 1 56:51

I, I have, at this point, I used to have a pretty equal, um, amount. And then since Trump was elected, um, either they unfriended me or I unfriended them.

Speaker 3 57:04

Um, no, but do you think you have more right, friend,

Speaker 1 57:06

Right wing? I used, I, I used to have equal amount now. I have predominantly left wing friends. Yeah. Although I have had to so

Speaker 3 57:13

Progressive that, that they are past the centrist area that you are in.

Speaker 1 57:18

I, I don't have many of those. Yeah. Those people. Yes. I, I, I do have a lot of left leaning, FLA friends. Most of my friends are left leaning on, on social media. Um, but all of the, like the extreme Bernie bros, I, I, I don't really have any contact with, unless they're family

Speaker 2 57:37

Wanna, I, I, I wanna answer that question. I also think we can reframe things a little bit, cuz I, yeah. I think social media in some ways is distorting. Mm-hmm,<affirmative> our understanding. Well, and it's a wag, the dog situation too. Cuz then social media influences how people think offline. Um, but like yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, the left wing populism, I, I, I am also much more, uh, much more progressive friend social group, family group and stuff, the right w people have, have left. Um, but I feel like like community itself and, uh, is, is a progressive concept. I think what we think about is as, as left wing, uh, you know, doesn't capture soup kitchens, it doesn't capture, uh, civic organizations, people that, you know, are just doing their jobs every day, right. That are that, you know,

Speaker 3 58:26

Because EJ, I think you, you started by asking like, what do we do now? How do we move forward? And, and I think with progress with people who are far far left, who don't wanna vote anymore because they're so far left. I think sometimes I think about it and I don't, I don't mean to be demeaning, but I think about it the way I talk to our toddlers. Right? First you, you identify their feeling. You are so mad right now. I'm mad too. This is how, this is how mad we feel. We feel so mad. We're gonna punch a couch. You know, obviously that's for toddlers, but you, you can start by talking to your progressive. I am so mad right now. I am so, so mad right now. And then you move to like, what can we do together? Mm-hmm<affirmative> to fix this solution. And I mean, I think you're gonna have some progressive people who are like, we're gonna go kill the Supreme court. Okay. Well, okay. I can't go kill the Supreme court because I have two small children and they depend on me. So what can I, what can we all do together to, to fix the situation? And I think maybe there might be some common ground that you can find there, but you gotta iden you gotta engage with their feelings first because sometimes that that's super, super educate. Again, Jay, you, you have said this, you know, pro uh, um, populism comes from a place of fear. So, and, and all really strong emotions come from that. So you're just like, yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh. We are so mad. We are. And I I'm saying we're so mad right now and it's sounding

Speaker 2 59:56

IM no, this is perfect. I don't wanna love this.

Speaker 3 59:58

Don't wanna, like, I don't wanna put, I don't wanna, I don't know, make it sound silly. I'm I'm not trying to make it sound silly, but

Speaker 2 1:00:04

I'm trying to validating

Speaker 3 1:00:06

Scott come to, I, I, I, I'm trying to show you like how, how you can meet someone at their level. And, and I think maybe that's the way to do it. I am really, really mad to, cause I am, I am really mad. I don't

Speaker 2 1:00:19

Know. Yeah, no, I think that's, that's really, I mean again, yeah. 1 0 1 for, um, convincing people is yeah. You, you acknowledge people's emotions. I mean, that's how, that's how populous leaders do it. You know, they're like, you're, you're so mad right now. So, so blame, but then it's like, so blame X where, whereas the, the actual quote, air quotes, progressives can be like, you're so mad right now. So what can we do to build a community where this does not happen, where we all have, can live with dignity, where we all, you know, can build a better, more just world mm-hmm<affirmative>.

Speaker 3 1:00:52

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:00:52

So is there kind of like a guideline on how to deal with Antipop or how to deal with populism? Is there like an anti populism handbook that we can, we can recognize and utilize?

Speaker 2 1:01:02

Well, I mean, progressive that's the thing. And I think that's why I've been hammering this so much for so long is like progressivism is kind of the opposite of that. It's about the community building it's about the everyday, you know, uh, stuff that like, so that we don't walk outside and everything's on fire, you know, it's um, and it's about like patching the holes and like, you know, it's about boring zoning committee meetings, you know, and stuff like that. And like people, you know, and yeah. Getting to that people to that place is, yes, I know you're really angry. We have to go to the zoning committee meeting so that we can have more dense, um, housing here because housing's so unaffordable and it leads to so many other social determinants of health that are causing all these problems. Right. So like, yeah, getting that point a to point B. And so that's that? Yeah. The handbook is all these groups that are doing all this community building, you know, the church down the street, uh, where I used to hold the Baltimore help desk, um, community meetings, they run a soup kitchen every day. Like what are they doing to keep it open year after year? You know?

Speaker 1 1:02:06

And I kind of want to use that as a jumping off point to closing this, this conversation up, we are living in a post real world right now. It, this is the, the lot that we are given. We've been dealt a hand, pardon my French, how do we move forward? What can we do on a community by community basis on a state, by state basis? What can we realistically hope to achieve in order to, I mean, I hate to say it live with this. What, what can we do?

Speaker 2 1:02:49

I mean, I think that there's some good news here, you know, um, midterms go poorly for Democrats who outnumber Republicans buy a lot, um, when they don't show up, um, in large enough numbers, they need a galvanizing force. Well, guess what? We have one<laugh> and this one, isn't this one isn't even going away. This isn't like a particular candidate or maybe a, um, a policy issue that fades away. I mean, people are even kind of tuning out Ukraine now, unfortunately, but, um, this issue because it's been, uh, abortion, reproductive rights have been, uh, so, uh, front and center for so many decades, this is, this is going to galvanize people. So we, and we're in a, and we've talked about this before, too. We're in a paradigm shift. We really don't know what this new status quo is gonna look like. It's some questions we have may take many years for us to answer. We don't know what the, what the new normal, when the dust clears, um, is finally gonna look like. So, so we know that we know that the, the midterms is a big question, mark, anyone who's telling you, they know what's gonna happen, uh, is selling something, uh, you know, um, there's, there's lots of other things. Uh, corporate power is a really big question, mark, uh, go to popular.info, check out which companies are, uh, um, and they're not paying me. I just think it's really important. Those that are supporting democracy. Those there's a bunch of companies who stop supporting insurrectionists candidates from January 6th. There's some who've backslid. And, and now there's lists of companies that are paying people to travel to other states where they have rights to get abortions, things like that. So all that's out there. So that's a big question too. Um, there's we can spend a whole episode talking about the nullification crisis of the 1830s. Uh, you know, some, some, uh, some states were like, Hey, you know what we don't, how is the Supreme court gonna enforce anything? We just say no to them? Well, it turns out, uh, Andrew Jackson and his buoy knife had a convincing argument. Um,<laugh> a tale for another time. There's a lot of other things that are happening right now. Um, and so I feel like, you know, we all all need to stay focused on our communities and our loved ones and at one step at a time.

Speaker 3 1:04:56

Yeah. I think it's gonna depend on where you are. Um, here in Pennsylvania, we have a lot of work to do coming up to the midterm because, uh, that's exactly what's on the ballot. If the governor turns red, then we got a lot of red going on and we're gonna lose access to abortions, which actually matter to me, may not matter to a lot of other people, but I think, I mean, that would, that would be very bad. Um, for me personally, um, as well as for other women in my age bracket, um, I think, you know, if you're in California, maybe giving money to organizations that can move women from Texas to California to get an abortion would probably be a good use of your money. Um, the problem with row falling is that there are a lot of other rights that are now in question. Yeah. Um, so I think I've, I've seen a lot of things, you know, if you are gay and you have children find a lawyer right away and make sure that you have custody over both children, because for whatever reason, um, you know, if, if your marriage is considered no longer valid, then you have a real issue. Um, as from just a purely family law perspective, hopefully it won't not go that far, but you always wanna be prepared. Um, but I sound like an advertisement for a family law firm. I'm not, but go talk to your local lawyer.<laugh> about your kids.

Speaker 2 1:06:17

Yeah.

Speaker 3 1:06:19

Uh, you know, I, I, I don't know. I think there's a lot to be done, but it's really, really, um, lo locality specific at this point.

Speaker 2 1:06:27

Mm-hmm<affirmative>

Speaker 1 1:06:28

Thank you. Yeah. I mean, honestly, if, if people are out there listening to this and you live in New York and you live in California, it's time to move to a purple state. If you really give a crap, you need to, you need to move to a purple state.<laugh> I think that's

Speaker 2 1:06:43

Do I need to move EJ? I, everybody, Maryland, not everybody

Speaker 1 1:06:47

Has that

Speaker 3 1:06:48

Can do that. But if you do have a job that can do that, let me tell you we are fun EJ, and I, we have like 30 minutes of free time in the evening and it is super fun and you're all welcome.

Speaker 2 1:07:00

<laugh><laugh> Pennsylvania is the Keystone state, uh, very critical races. Uh, people should donate. Uh, I will probably end up going, uh, driving up and doing some door to door.<laugh> uh, you can, you can, uh, call from home. Don't have to leave your house. You can phone bank, uh, as I've also done in Pennsylvania races, I also worked for dozens of campaigns in Pennsylvania over the last couple cycles. Uh, very critical. I'm just, I just love Pennsylvania, uh, be, and it's so important, uh, for our politics too. So I, I, I'm gonna show my bias on the air here.

Speaker 3 1:07:37

Move out here, Jay, if you don't have, if you have an address, what good are you<laugh>

Speaker 2 1:07:41

I can come up. I can drive up to Philly, eat some donuts is that's sort start sort start. Okay.

Speaker 4 1:07:48

But I guess the bottom line of this whole thing is that if we want to, if we want to get through this, please, please vote this election. Please vote this election. Please vote this election.

Speaker 2 1:08:00

Amen to that.

Speaker 4 1:08:11

A Nazi on wall street is brought to you by elusive films maker of the, a Nazi on wall Street's film and television series. It was recorded and edited by EJ Russo. Original music was written and performed by Joseph Maholin. We can't bring these stories to life on screen without your support. So please consider donating to our crowdfunding campaign@elusive-films.com. That's elusive hyphens com for Jason Wexel I'm EJ Russo. Thank you. And we will see you next episode.